Mailbag II

WEBVTT

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Adventures. The podcast are role players
and game masters to help level up your

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game. We're dungeon masters. I'm
Jason Portiso, I'm Joe McCall, and

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I am Jim Crocker. And today
we're going to do another one of these

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mail bags. I love, love
love hearing these things. Just like we

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say fifteen times every episode, you
can send us your voicemail at Hello Adventurous

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podcast dot com slash voice, and
today we get to we get to listen

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to them and let's see if we
can do a lot some advice. But

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he's going to be all null related
voicemails. Since that episode has actually aired

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now and that joke makes sense,
then yes, I hope they will be

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weird. We gonna be all Hyena
Hya. What did I say? Hyena

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screeches, Hyena yells to us,
children of you. Now, yes,

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it would be super weird if it
was because we just recorded that episode ten

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minutes ago. Oh, come on, you gave up the ghost on that

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one. Take that fifth wall.
That's another callback. That's another callback,

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lousy with walls. All right,
let's let's dive right into our first voicemail.

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This is coming from It's coming from
Zach Hey guys, my question is

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do we think that not twenties should
be honored during initiatives, not twenty un

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initiatives. I want you take twenty
and you add your initiative bonus twenty short

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correct? Ye are That's that's really
easy? So okay, so we understand

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what he's getting at. Ye give
you Should you just go straight to the

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top of the order? No,
I don't think so. Not if somebody

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else also rolls at twenty or even
in nineteen and has a better bonus.

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Yeah, yeah, it's it's strictly
it's not the same as right, it's

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not the same as combat. It's
it's now as far as like honoring it.

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If someone else rolls in that twenty
or if you tie for initiative,

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you know, maybe we established in
an episode or two ago that there is

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no real rules for tie breakers an
initiative. Maybe that's your tie breaker.

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You go, hey, man,
come on, I just I just rolled

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the NAT. Yeah, we're not
going to give you a surprise round.

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We're not gonna give you anything like
that. And like I say, with

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with a lot of things like the
NAT twenty, the crit only happens on

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an attack role. In five E
and I think in D and D in

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general, crits are all about attack
roles. Man, that would have been

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a good thing to bring up in
our rules thing too. We're bringing up

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now. We're bringing it up now. Yeah, if you want, if

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you want critical successes on other things, go play Pathfinder. Yeah. So

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I was gonna, I was gonna
positive that question to you and Jim is

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what do you think about that twenty
is on skill checks? Like do you

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I know rules is written, but
what are your thoughts? So what happens

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here? So this is called my
system for rolling a NAT twenty on a

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skill check is I take that twenty
and I add it to their rating and

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the skill and that's their result.
I love it. One of the things

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so one of the reasons why I
avoid doing anything additional for twenty, you

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know, for NAT twenties, is
that anytime you add crits to anything that's

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not combat, you devalue anything that
people are taking that increases their bonus or

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gives them other spips along with that. Yeah, I like that. I

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like that answer. So, like, you don't want a thing where like

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if you have a system where let's
talk about initiative, if you decide well,

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if you roll a NAT twenty on
initiative, you go first automatically.

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You know. The rogue who like
spent two feets to always go first,

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even when they roll like a seven
is sitting there like staring daggers at you.

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Because actual literal divers exactly five percent
of the time, you're going to

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go before them even though your total
initiative bonus is only plus four. Yeah,

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that's why you don't do that.
Yeah, really, that's a good

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example why not to do it?
There? If it's something like a perception

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check, and it's just like that, you walk in the room, it's

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like, okay, well do I
find anything of particular interest in here?

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I think of me something broad like
that, and then they roll. Then

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at twenty I would be like,
okay, yeah, you see this thing,

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this thing, this thing, and
this looks a little little fun to

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you. I would kind of I
would give them a little a little nuts

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maybe, But at the same time, I'm not gonna If you're putting a

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d C high enough, there's a
reason that DC is high enough for you

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know what, whatever it is.
So and and then it's going to take

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a d C twenty five sleight of
hand to unlock, like just because you

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roll in that twenty, well,
how's your slight of hand? Like,

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what's your bonus on that? Oh
it's two. It's not enough like in

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those situations have to stay locked in
those situations not so much. I'm talking

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about it for like DC ten stuff, and then they just shatter that number.

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Yeah, you know it sounds like
you probably were going to to give

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them something like that anyway. I
don't know. It's also I know,

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I know, I hypothetically, I
know, I said like tens or eight

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and then you get a seven,
and I'm like, yeah, the otherway.

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But the idea that if you want
a house rule it so that if

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you roll an AT twenty on on
something that's not a combat check, you

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get maybe a little something that is
specific to your character. That's not a

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thing that like submarine somebody else or
you know, that's not a thing that

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undoes somebody else's bonus, but you
know, you get that NAT twenty on

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that's on that perception check. Maybe
as the DM you decide you drop an

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extra spell component in there for the
wizard because the wizard got that NAT twenty

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you know, just something like that
that's like a little bit of a spiff.

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That can be a you know,
on a case by case thing,

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but you don't ever want to do
it in a way that, like I

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said, devalues the effort that you
know, other characters that have explicitly spent

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resources to be good at that thing, you don't ever want that NAT You

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know that random die roll to out
what they can do that they've spent,

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they've actually invested. Yeah, and
that initive example of the rogue is actually

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a really good example of that give
them inspiration maybe also why not, Hey,

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it doesn't get you anything additional,
but you can yeah, you know,

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and and actually awarding inspiration on a
NAT twenty is kind of a cool

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thing to do when, like you
said, if you encounter that thing where

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even on a NAT twenty you don't
make the check because you've got a low

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bonus or something like that, like
that can because of the kind of aura

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that that twenty has around it that
could feel a little lame sometimes to players.

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So you know, maybe it's a
role in your maybe it's a standard

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role in your campaign. If you
roll a twenty and still fail the check,

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boom instant point of inspiration. That's
a great way to use them.

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I also think if you if they
roll a twenty and still fail the check,

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they should never rolled in the first
place. You just tell me they

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can't do it. But that's another
that's another issue. I will say that

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like in this this might be a
controversial one, but I want to play

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Devil's Out okay before you get to
that kind of So the reason that the

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reason that I would still have you
do it is because like I don't want

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you to approach something and be like
I'm probably not gonna be able to do

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it anyway and then not try right, And that it's to keep like a

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certain amount of consistency. It's not
don't let them try, it's don't make

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them roll right. So if you're
if you're if you're a guy with with

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with with no decks and no proficiency
here in these tools, I could just

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pick a lot and he's like,
Okay, I'm gonna pick the lock,

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and like, okay, cool.
You try and it just doesn't It just

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doesn't click. Should I roll for
It's like, no, it's just not

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gonna know this. You absolutely can
say you need to actually be trained in

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this in order to make a check
here. And I think the rules are

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explicit that you can do that on
some of these checks. But you know,

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I got to say, I'm kind
of with Joe on this one because

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different tables have different rules about like
does the DM always tell you what the

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DC is? Do you you know, is it a situation like? And

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the other time that that can happen
is like, you know, unopposed role

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right where you know, you get
a twenty. I got that twenty plus

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seven. That's twenty seven. Oh
yeah, sorry, you know the critter's

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got a plus ten bonus and I
rolled the nineteen. That's another time where

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you can do that, you know, where you roll a twenty and it

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wasn't even a bad role, but
you still failed because it wasn't a post

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Yeah done that. No, that
that absolutely makes sense. Yeah uh oh.

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What what I was going to say
was this, and this might be

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I'll get your pitchforks for this one. I think the the critical success on

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a skill check and some like and
some other things like especially in combat is

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some of the things that I prefer
about Pathfinder. I think, oh,

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is that a Pathfinder thing? Critical
success on on ability checks and it's some

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really cool like like like ways they
think you can use your actions in combat,

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for I think is a reason to
at least read the book and see

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see if it's a different game for
you. But so, but that's specific

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to zact question. Yeah, you
know, you just you just add your

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You just add your Yeah, they
count, they count the twenties. You

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add your initiative bonus, just like
any other role. And he compared to

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everyone else is you're probably going to
go first too, but maybe not necessarily

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in zactly and there are good legitimate
reasons not to add some kind of crit

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role to that. I was going
to say, Zach, you are a

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rogue. So maybe take that feet
that that Jim was talking about. Actually

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he didn't know what the alert feet
was until he sent this over. No,

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I just don't. I just don't
know. Hello Adventurers, thank you

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so much for listening. If you
enjoy the show, the absolute best thing

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you can do to support us is
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episodes are released. You can also
leave us a review five stars. Of

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course, that will help us get
seen by more D and D players,

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and more than anything else, just
tell your friends about us. If you

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like what we're doing here, then
there's a good chance that your DM or

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your players will enjoy it too,
and you don't need the loop gold to

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do any of that. We appreciate
your listening. Now back to the show.

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Our next question is from Alex what
does a typical D and D end

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game look like? Once everyone's max
level? So let's just get this out

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of the way. A lot of
end games don't even go to max level.

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We just did an episode on on
the level twenty Capstones and what could

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happen with your you know, godlike
Heroes of Legend. But a lot of

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really cool campaigns after years will end
like level sixteen or so. And then

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the what does an end game look
like? That depends on what your story

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arc was to begin with, and
some don't have an endgame right. Some

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will finish the arc and keep going. I think way back, I don't

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know what episode I know exactly where're
going? Like, yeah, I mentioned

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that, and I read about them
all the time still in some of the

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Facebook someone they're like, yeah,
we've been playing for sixty years, you

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know, they're all level twenty and
like, and they're really mundane and they're

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fun for them. They don't like, they don't now playing my my original

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character's great great grandson. So that
will happen. They'll like re level and

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maybe they'll bring magic items that were
handed down not on like the One Ring

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or something like that, or or
they're just like they own businesses and they

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go to work every day and they're
like, I'm getting Star Valley. Yeah,

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actually that farm. I would actually
really like we talked about our perfect

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game at some point. I want
I want the Lethal Weapon D and D

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game where I'm I'll be able what's
his name, Danny Glover's character, but

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I forget, like I'm getting too
old for this stuffs, Yeah, Riggs.

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Riggs was actually what's his name Gibson? Yeah, Mel Gibson. I

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was gonna say Braveheart, So it
was Marton. So they're let's meet this

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like like a multiple choice things.
So like, what are some ways that

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a camp that an end game can
take the form of. So one is

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like it doesn't you you just become
you know, lame or retired, you

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know, just kind of you just
go into like a normal life and you

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can still just have you lame.
That that was unfair of me to say,

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but but compared to being a warrior
something and I got, I got

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overly excited. I'll hold mine comparatively
from being a warrior of legend that you

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were, you know, five years
ago in real lifetime and in game time

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was maybe six twenty one hundred years
ago, you know, but if you're

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all ls, that could be hundreds
of years and now you're a farmer,

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and like, you can still play
that out within the rules. The rules

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were all there for it, and
if that's how you want to spend your

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weekend, that's so I'm not gonna
stop it. What were you gonna say,

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Jeff? I was just say,
like, so I love Superman.

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Superman does not level up like he's
He just fights a different villain, and

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that villain has different motives and and
different powers and different ways that it can

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try to defeat Superman. And so
there's right, Superman's level twenty already.

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And I still read those comic books
like they're still interesting to me. I

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don't still read those comics. I
don't have time, but I would.

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But that's like, so you're you
are a story story. The story is

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still interesting. The villains can be
even more interesting now because you're I mean,

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you're a superhero. So now you're
gonna have super villains, like they

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find something out in your backstory and
there's still you know, races against the

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clock and everything else that you can
do so or mysteries to solve. That's

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the that's dragon Ball Z now,
like Goku has already gone beyond God level

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powers still around Goku last time I
watched it, power level nine thousand and

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one. Yeah, that's your original
Dragon Ball creator just past this past week

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said at the time of it's recording. But no, they just bring in

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like he's already the strongest one in
the world and then now we just get

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things from other worlds to come in
and challenge him again. Like what color

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is his hair at this point?
Is it's like a different blue. It's

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like a different Oh, it's it
went blue super saying god level. Yeah,

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that's a different podcast. This is
something that we talked about on in

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Curmudgens and Dragons. One of the
one of the last episode before we before

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we call that show quits, we
had an interview with the owner of my

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friendly local game store. His name
is Tony Bogan, So if you can

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go find his episode, I want
to say it was like one hundred and

211
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eleven something like that and really on
one of his book really close to the

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end and a Capstone episode if you
will, almost almost so in talking with

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him, he had a game that
he played for a people he still plays

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with, Yeah, and he's been
playing since like first edition day one.

215
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He was hauling out like maps of
like the country that they were rulers for

216
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now and the massive castle that they
all lived in that they had full blueprints

217
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for and all this kind of stuff. So oh yeah, and so kind

218
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of when they hit a certain level
that like they they can't really you know,

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they can just take on anything from
this world. That's when the first

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like spell Jammer stuff started coming out
and then starts throwing in things from other

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worlds and aliens of spaceships and like, I know, you can fight it

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Harasque with your eyes closed, but
like, here's a whole fleet of alien

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pas. So in their case,
the endgame looks like, Okay, the

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DM is going to throw the more
and more powerful monsters at us and we

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just get to taken on one of
the time. And that that sounds a

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lot like you your Superman comparison or
the Goku comparison. But there there's always

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something stronger to fight and sometimes in
your docile, little little farming world,

228
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sometimes they find you, yeah,
or make them the new gods in your

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next campaign. The the you know, your characters make up part of your

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Aeon antheon. There we go.
That's the word of Yeah. One of

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the things that I'm going to encourage
this listener to do is to actually go

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back and listen to if they haven't
already, our Adventure Starter episode where we

233
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talked about, you know, different
ways you can start a campaign, and

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if you have those in mind,
they also suggest ways that you can end

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that same campaign. So like,
if you set up up a one of

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those campaigns where you're all in a
guild that's giving you assignments, then that

237
00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:11.000
whole game art can be about you
rising through the ranks of the guild and

238
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you know, the end game is
you do whatever is needed, you go

239
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on whatever missions to become the heads
of that guild, and that's when you

240
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retire from adventuring. Is now you
are in charge of the guild, and

241
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then you can do that thing Joe
that you talked about where you know,

242
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if you want to restart that campaign, then you know the people giving you

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missions are those previous player characters,
right, Yeah, I love the I

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love the continuity in that too,
like in doing that and to me,

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like that's a lot of fun.
I would love to do that is then

246
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and then the next campaign that our
group plays like that, there's they interact

247
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with themselves and in some degree.
But then I just had an idea too.

248
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The other the other way that you
can end a campaign is what I

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want to call the Bob Newhart way. Yep, you wake up and it

250
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was all just a drop, You're
just I would flip the table, yes,

251
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and then pick up the table and
different world. You're in New York.

252
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No, don't do this, don't
do that. Listen. You know

253
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you talked about the you know,
one of the things that can bring the

254
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group together is that there's you know, each of them has the key to

255
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defeating some ultimate evil sometime in the
future, and you know, and I

256
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mean that's that puts the end game
right in there, you know, just

257
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drops it right in your lap,
which is there's a big bad you're gonna

258
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eventually run into, you know,
and and once you beat Fanos, then

259
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you know, that's the end of
that chapter of that age of that world,

260
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and everybody's safe for a while and
they'll all thank you for it,

261
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and that's the end of that game. And that's and that's how most of

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them do end, is like we
have, yeah, with some kind of

263
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giant big bad. I don't love
that as an ending, but but it

264
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is absolutely but it's kind of the
easiest and most straightforward way to do.

265
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Yeah, the false big Bad is
a good one really. From from day

266
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one, you all know who you're, who you're going after. Then about

267
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halfway through the campaign you realize,
oh, he's just part one of an

268
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bigger thing. Going back to the
you're rising through the ranks of the guild.

269
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I have the epiphany of rising the
ranks through the guild and then we're

270
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going to take the wanted approach,
the graphic novel and the movie that,

271
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Yeah, the Mark Malar thing.
Yeah, where it turns out then you

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00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:25.079
realize, like you, guys,
he gets wiped out or well not even

273
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above you. You realize that the
whole thing has to get wiped out.

274
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Right, You realize that you are
you are that b you've been You've been

275
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working for Evil Corp. This whole
time. Yeah, and this isn't so

276
00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:38.319
much change back of voice are but
more injury and Jolie's are where she gets

277
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to the top and she's like,
oh, we've all been named a minute,

278
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:47.720
we got to go, and she
goes well one shot spoiler spoiler for

279
00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:52.480
a fifteen year old movie, Very
Young James spoilers and no spoilers. That

280
00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.440
movie is awesome, but it's a
pretty cool one. It's a lot of

281
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fun. So when I ran my
the urban game that I've talked about quite

282
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a quite a bit where we had
each of the characters from a different neighborhood.

283
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The end game that I had in
mind there and then all the players

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are interested in working their way towards
was because we had this kind of civic

285
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structure and basically all of them had
jobs you know that kind of like like

286
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in addition to being adventurers. You
know. One of them was literally a

287
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:25.400
customs inspector, right, which is
kind of a cool job in a D

288
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and D world, right, you
know, when we're like, you're making

289
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sure that that crate doesn't have a
gelatinous cube in it or something like that,

290
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:34.759
you know. And another one was
like a librarian, like a low

291
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:41.319
level librarian at the like crazy magical
library that had all of the you know,

292
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like living books in it and all
this kind of stuff and everything.

293
00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:48.640
And another one was you know,
a priestess of the Deaf goddess who worked

294
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it basically worked in the morgue when
the game started. But that game was

295
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.720
about kind of jumping back and forth
between their different storylines and as the game

296
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progressed, like they were getting more
important in the city, becoming better known,

297
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and eventually, like the end game
that we had in mind for that

298
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was they would all kind of rise
to the head of their respective professions and

299
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be the leaders of the city.
And the point at which they did what

300
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.039
they needed to do to to you
know, to get elected or appointed or

301
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.559
whatever promote get that that final promotion, that was when the game would kind

302
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of end with them at the pinnacles
of their profession and being these very important

303
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:32.640
people in the city. That's like, that's the the cific version of leveling

304
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up m So it's all that to
say that it is, it is not

305
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totally. I don't even assume that
most campaigns just do end by just finishing

306
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the story that they set out or
just fizzling out. A lot of times,

307
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:51.880
a lot a lot of times people
just then they kid schedule think of

308
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.640
the schedule. Al was very careful
to say an endgame, not how the

309
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game is. Most games end by
people moving nowhere, you're having kids,

310
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.240
or just you know, not not
being free on Tuesdays anymore, but an

311
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actual end game, which means this
story does come to some sort of conclusion.

312
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You start with, we start with
an overarching story, you finish that

313
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:11.400
story, that's where we're going to
end our campaign. You start a new

314
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:15.480
story. Yeah, that's a very
common one, like being able to continue

315
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.720
that, whether by becoming a farmer
or in the case of the I'm gonna

316
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.799
bring them that pot again. Their
first campaign took place in one world called

317
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.640
Bohomia, and then they finished that
a whole campaign, then they did some

318
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.279
other ones. They did a campaign
too, and then another side one,

319
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:33.400
and then for the campaign three,
they brought it back to Bohoomia two hundred

320
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.039
years later. Right, and now
they see they see the fallout of their

321
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:41.440
actions. Yeah, but how do
we end that first campaign? I think

322
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.519
that there's all different kinds of ways, but it comes down to planning.

323
00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:45.680
Yeah, of course, And I
know, and that can look different,

324
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:51.599
and it's something that the DM and
the player should be kind of like co

325
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.039
conspirators on with Yeah. That's the
thing that I want to mention is that

326
00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:00.160
this is not all on you as
the d M. Absolutely, you know,

327
00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.119
take a whole session and say,
look, we're seventeenth level, we're

328
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:06.960
headed towards the end game here,
what do you guys want to see?

329
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:11.480
What would be a satisfying end to
this game? You know, and people

330
00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:14.640
are you know different people are going
to want some different things, and you

331
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.599
know, as long as you're you
know, do that a couple levels in

332
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.880
advance, don't wait until they're half
the two level twenty and go oh shit,

333
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.720
I got to figure out how to
end this game then you know a

334
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.240
while. Yeah, also through that
again halfway through, yes, say hey,

335
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.759
we've been doing this a while.
It's like what, like, a

336
00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:33.400
are you guys still having fun?
How's it going? This is this world

337
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.880
still exciting to you? And like
what is it? What does an ideal

338
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.799
end look like to you the player? And then you know tell them yes.

339
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:45.680
And I know in our game,
I had our players come up with

340
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.599
goals, but some of them were
shorter term than others. So as they've

341
00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:52.880
completed it, just follow up like
hey you did that part? Yeah,

342
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.240
yeah, that was very short.
Yeah, it was. It was super

343
00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.400
and straight for mine's kind of intangible. So there's there's a condes one,

344
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:03.720
there's some weird ones. But uh
yeah, so the to kind of put

345
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.279
a little a little bow on the
package here, Alex. So the most

346
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.400
common way is probably just finishing the
story you set out to finish, and

347
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.680
then you wrap wrap that up and
start the next story. You can continue

348
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:18.599
that story into the next set of
adventures, kind of like Superman or Goku,

349
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:21.839
or you can just continue that story
as it probably would in real life

350
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.359
and you just become a farmer or
some sort of some sort of leader that

351
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.319
no one knows as a god level
wizard until one day trouble comes a knocking,

352
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you know. But I hope that
helps you out there, Alex.

353
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:40.599
And let's do one more. The
last one is coming in from Josh Dogmatic.

354
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:45.079
What do you got for us?
What's up? Adventurers? First time

355
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:49.839
listener, long time caller here.
I was just wondering your thoughts on like

356
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:59.799
four stops lessons by five year editions. Do you think, like maybe was

357
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.960
the Coast is just trying to keep
making money on their thing or are they

358
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.519
really actually improving things over time.
I know some people say, like,

359
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.799
hey, we could just go back
to third it was perfect. But is

360
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:18.599
it was it? Could there be
things so much better in the future than

361
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:22.559
there are now? I don't know. Is it worth the amount of money

362
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:29.400
they are asking per books to rebuild
your library every ten years? I don't

363
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:33.400
know. I love the system,
I buy books. I love buying books.

364
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:38.000
I love paying people for their inventive
craft. But was it the coast

365
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:45.240
just rewriting rules to sell a new
edition? I don't know. Tell me

366
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:55.519
what you think. Baba Booe,
the match Players dude is a He's a

367
00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:00.640
literal muppet. He's one of my
favorite people in the world. But great

368
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.920
points. Actually, forced obsolescence is
maybe not the term I would use for

369
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.880
it, because they're not going anywhere. Excuse me. People still play first

370
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.359
edition or fourth edition, especially three
point five in stores all the time.

371
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:18.240
Our local game store is running a
first edition campaign coming up very soon,

372
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.240
which I kind of want to join. But any any like initial thoughts,

373
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:29.559
you guys, I mean, like
the answer is, you know, as

374
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.440
with a lot of these questions,
of course, they want to make money.

375
00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.000
Of course that's the goal of the
company. Of course that's one of

376
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.960
the reasons why they you know,
come out with a new edition, although

377
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:45.440
the every five years thing actually not
so much. It's been nearly a decade

378
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.119
that fifth edition is out. Fourth
was out for nearly ten years before fifth

379
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:52.920
got really so it's close ten years. It's rough closer to a decade,

380
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:57.440
which is like in gamer terms,
about a generation, right. So,

381
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:03.319
absolutely yes, it is a cynical
cash grab right down to the very roots

382
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:08.720
of it. And also absolutely yes, everybody working on it, all of

383
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:14.279
the creators, sincerely believe that what
they are doing is improving the game,

384
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.119
is delivering, is bringing the best
version of D and D that they can

385
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:22.960
bring. Like, as someone who
actually knows some of these designers, they

386
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.279
are, you know, every single
one of them is utterly sincere in their

387
00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.920
desire to you know, deliver the
best D and D that they can deliver,

388
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:37.720
you know, within the constraints of
no ethical consumption under capitalism. Right,

389
00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:42.519
So it's always going to be both, you know, neither and both

390
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.759
all the time, all the way
down. That's how it's going to go.

391
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.680
And I think the other thing to
keep in mind, as someone who

392
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:55.799
owned a game store, WATSI if
you have been playing D and D for

393
00:26:56.279 --> 00:27:02.359
ten or twenty or thirty or forty
years. You are not the principal audience

394
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.759
for that new edition of D and
D. The principal audience and the vast

395
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.759
majority of the people who are going
to buy that new version of D and

396
00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:15.680
D are people who have never played
D and D and you are you know,

397
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:21.079
like like like old school grognards like
me who have played you know,

398
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:26.160
all five editions going back to the
original Blue Box are a tiny minority of

399
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:27.759
the people that are now playing D
and D. I think that's a wonderful

400
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.440
thing. I think that's great.
That's you know, there's nothing better for

401
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.279
the hobby than hard. Yeah.
Then the fact that it is no longer

402
00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.079
you know, the exclusive province of
you know, straight white men from the

403
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:42.559
you know, Midwestern and Northeast suburbs. I think that's fantastic. But it

404
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:47.759
can feel, you know, like
I've been on this ride for thirty years.

405
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.359
Why do I have to keep buying
a new ticket? You know,

406
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.559
to which I say, if every
ten so, like, no kidding,

407
00:27:55.640 --> 00:28:00.640
the core of D and D is
three books, right, and so you

408
00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.720
know, the last three D and
D books I bought were fifty bucks a

409
00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.240
throw one hundred and fifty bucks if
you buy them from a game store and

410
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.279
not on Amazon. We could probably
get them for less than one hundred if

411
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:18.799
you don't wait for a ten years
of entertainment, you know, hundreds,

412
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:23.400
if not thousands of hours of entertainment
for that one hundred and fifty dollars investment,

413
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:29.759
Like name like a better ratio,
a better return on investment for your

414
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.200
entertainment dollar than that's first set of
dice. There we go. So but

415
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.799
yeah, Oberg beer would be the
only better return on investment if you're of

416
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.799
age and you can do it.
But if that's the true is the cost,

417
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:45.839
but the cost of entry might be
a little bit higher than that.

418
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:51.880
But anyway, I'll time it with
my bias as well. You can podcast

419
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.680
for underd hundred dollars. Yeah,
but so what I wanted to add to

420
00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:02.279
that is I agree with that,
and it's not obsolete, right because and

421
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:07.480
I actually just went and bought on
drive through OURPGA about the PDFs of like

422
00:29:07.599 --> 00:29:11.480
Keep on the Borderlands of all like
some of the original What to Ad and

423
00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:15.039
D or Edition one or whatever it
is. So I bought those because I

424
00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:17.359
was like, I need it,
like story ideas. So I wanted to

425
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.160
borrow from some of those. Yeah, so I bought a bunch of those,

426
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:25.000
and they're like four or five dollars
for the PDFs. So one they're

427
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:29.079
not obsolete. I'll still be able
to take these stories and stuff in whatever

428
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:33.400
the next edition is. I'll be
able to repurpose them in that way.

429
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.119
And really all I'll need to do
that is to your point, Jim,

430
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.599
the three core books. Because here's
the thing, Wizards of the Coast,

431
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.920
because they are a business and want
to continue to make money, doesn't recreate

432
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.000
the addition to make money. They
just release books. So if they were

433
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:52.240
just concerned about making money, they
would just do what they're already doing,

434
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.920
which is releasing books or fifth edition
on top of that fifth edition. And

435
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.720
this might be to your point as
well, is who is the new edition

436
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:06.000
for fifth edition is the most widely
played edition out of all editions of DMV

437
00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:10.440
in order of magnitude. Questions about
it and the reason for that, I'm

438
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:14.279
sure we can we can come up
with all the litany of reasons that Stranger

439
00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:15.880
Things. Off the top of my
head, so what is called all media?

440
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:18.960
Yeah, what's Stranger Things? Critical
role? The movie and walters Gate

441
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:26.119
right. But the popularity of podcasts
yep, the popularity of board games and

442
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:32.359
tabletop games references Target. We can
thank Target honestly a lot for buy one,

443
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:34.200
get one, and I put a
starter pack. I knew a guy

444
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:38.720
who's a little older than me that
was getting shipped out with the military,

445
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.160
who is going to be gone from
his family for you know, six six

446
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:45.119
to eight months, and he had
a going away party. I put a

447
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.559
starter pack in his as a gift
and gave that to him when he was

448
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:49.839
going away, because I was like, man, what are you going to

449
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:53.519
do just sitting around a base for
hours, for days and days. You

450
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:59.599
don't have anybody you know? D
and is negative Lary and that's what that's

451
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:00.680
what made me think of that.
I was like, man, yeah,

452
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.119
a lot of people start playing in
the military. I'm going to give this

453
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:06.720
guy a starter set. Yeah,
so he can you know, just run

454
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:11.200
of games combined with the general accessibility
and how and how easy to learn five

455
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.240
E is compared to other editions and
are the reasons why the internet and the

456
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.759
internet you know that we can Yeah, I don't need I don't need to

457
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.880
know three or four people that want
to play. I could just go on

458
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:30.839
to what to LFG and read it. I think it is LG or something

459
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:37.079
you can connect with people that don't
necessarily like my son who's eighteen, has

460
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.920
connected with people on the opposite coast
and other countries and he plays I'm Just

461
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.039
Dragons with them online and it's great
and so so yeah, I don't think

462
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:52.799
so. So back to the question
the new editions, I think it is

463
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.880
cynical cash grab of all time.
Yeah, sure, yeah, and well

464
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.720
so the other part is I've I've
heard lots of people have been playing for

465
00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:01.839
years say this is actually my favorite
edition, and so it does. I

466
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:07.400
think it is getting better. I'm
excited to see and not excited at the

467
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.680
same time to see what's in.
What's it called D and D Next or

468
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:13.799
the official name has not been released
at the time of this recording, whatever

469
00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:15.400
sixth edition is or five and a
half. Well, okay, that's That's

470
00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:21.359
what I want to bring up,
is that in this particular case, the

471
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:27.680
the the forced ops lessons argument is
a little bit less holding because they've come

472
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.359
forward and at least confirmed that this
is not so much a sixth edition,

473
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:35.079
it's not even a five point five, right, this is a continuation and

474
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:39.200
a re evaluation of fifth edition,
which they've done already. A couple of

475
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.880
times they've been like, hey,
we looked at this, and they've tweaked

476
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.720
some things, and especially when Tashas
came out, there was a lot of

477
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:50.240
things some people call Tasha's five point
five, which is almost five point two

478
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:52.960
five at best. Yeah, but
one point two zero, not to put

479
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:58.519
too fine a point on it,
but like forced ops lescence would be if

480
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:06.680
like, after exactly six months your
books self destructed. U that doesn't like

481
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:12.759
ideas don't have you know, obsolescence
built into them unless you decide that you

482
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:16.480
want to do something, something new
and something Yeah, that's why the OGL

483
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:21.960
is so important, right. I
don't want to take his phrase too literally,

484
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.759
but but you think it was just
lack of a better term, exactly,

485
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:32.880
and that we're a flair for the
dramatic knowing him oh somatic, it's

486
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.279
it is. It is okay to
not want to play whatever the new edition

487
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:43.559
is, to not buy it and
to keep playing whatever previous version of it

488
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:46.920
is. There's just a leg as
the new version of Oh absolutely, But

489
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:52.680
just to finish my point, the
new version is not a new version they

490
00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:55.319
have. They've been pretty clear that
this is a continuation and just like a

491
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.920
small slight revamp of fifth edition Fifth
Edition and stuff will still work on the

492
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.799
new rules, and the new rules
will work backwards with existing fifth edition books.

493
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.519
So this might be this might be
the best torch pass to the new

494
00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:12.519
version that we've seen in the past
five and it seems to be on a

495
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:15.599
nice ten year cycle as fifth edition
came out in the middle of twenty fourteen,

496
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:20.599
it is currently first quarter of the
twenty twenty four so yeah, and

497
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:23.159
then they have a subscription based model
now, like they're not making money the

498
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:28.639
same way like publishers just on the
whole don't make money the same way that

499
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.480
they used to. So that's I'm
sure a big part of it as well.

500
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:37.440
Every D and D book sold in
the last decade is a rounding error

501
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:42.400
compared to the amount of money they
made on that movie, right, sure,

502
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.400
right, and that Mattel probably brings
in anyway, and it's still ye

503
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:50.320
like and Balder's Kate three for that. Oh yeah, there you go.

504
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.920
So you know, like D and
D exists as an intellectual property engine so

505
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:58.800
that they can do stuff that makes
they're real money, and now they're branching

506
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:01.079
out. They're doing if you're on
D and D Beyond, they're doing some

507
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:07.480
really interesting things. Like it started
with Magic right, but it's gone way

508
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.360
further than that now even with Critical
Lord of the Rings tie in. So

509
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:17.360
you've got the newest one Erathus.
No. I don't know, No,

510
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:20.440
is that? Is that a magic
thing? I don't know? I just

511
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.280
thought, I I don't know enough
about it. I listen. I have

512
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.760
a long history Magic player, but
I stopped playing in twenty that's fair so

513
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:30.280
so, but even with Critical Role. So so, the creators of Critical

514
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:37.519
Role went and they released before they
released a book with WATSI, which was

515
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.000
Explorer's Guide to Wild wild Man,
which is the setting that my game set.

516
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:45.400
And it doesn't matter. They had
really they had self published and started

517
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:51.760
a publishing company and made their own
book that worked with or setting, that

518
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.039
worked with fitth edition, and they
released that on their own, had nothing

519
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:01.679
to do with Watzi. But now, at least for online, now D

520
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:05.920
and D Beyond is you can down
the you can buy that through D and

521
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:09.360
D Beyond to get it digitally,
and now you can get maps. They're

522
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:14.760
they're come up, come, they
have come out with their own virtual tabletop

523
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:16.920
BTT. Yes, right, yeah, that's that's the new It's one of

524
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:21.280
the reasons that they've put those subscriptions. That's where they're going to make all

525
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.360
their money. It's it's they're going
to get you on subscriptions because and this

526
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:28.320
just happened to me, and this
is one of the reasons I hate these

527
00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:31.440
subscriptions. I wanted the physical things, right, But as we were,

528
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:37.239
I was sharing the Core books online. I have my own copies of the

529
00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:39.679
actual physical copies of Core books,
but online I was sharing them with my

530
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:45.559
son. But during the whole ogl
the box the EXSS, he deleted his

531
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:51.960
or he canceled his his I forget
what whatever tier that was membership. So

532
00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:57.400
I don't have access to those anymore. So now I have to either buy

533
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.480
them again through D and D Beyond
or pull out my physical editions whenever I

534
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:04.360
want to use them, which is
what I've been doing, right, But

535
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:07.400
yeah, I mean the subscription based
model. My whole point is you've got

536
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:12.000
to pay I don't know what it
is, ten dollars a month or whatever

537
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:15.039
it is to have access to those
plugs, rightual to share them. Yeah,

538
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.639
not to have access, but to
share them with other people. So

539
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:21.159
it kind kind of bring us back, to bring us back on the track

540
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:23.239
a little bit here. So well, that leads into his question about,

541
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:27.199
like, you know, is it
just a cash grab, which, of

542
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.719
course anything a large corporation does is
going to be a cash grab of some

543
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:32.440
sort. Is this a cash grab
that benefits the players? And I think

544
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:37.079
it might be. Well, it
depends on who you are and how you

545
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.320
feel about that. It depends on
your answer to the question do I like

546
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:45.960
the new edition? If you're a
Pathfinder player that's still playing Pathfinder and hates

547
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:51.159
fifth edition, which I've met a
handful of those, then I mean worth

548
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:54.199
noting that Pathfinder came out with a
second edition Pathfinder as well. Okay,

549
00:37:54.280 --> 00:38:00.519
yeah, you know, you know, Pizo is not particularly It's like Pizo

550
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:02.800
isn't shameless as well, Right,
But there's path Fine or two, and

551
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.440
then there's there's a newer version of
path Final two that just keep out recently.

552
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:09.280
Those are the books that I got. Yeah, I couldn't even find

553
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:14.000
for during the mass exodus of of
the of D and D players. I

554
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:15.960
couldn't even find. I would just
play a sad book if they're not doing

555
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.800
anything to it, but they're just
slapping it on and they're making it so

556
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:24.360
they're just changing things to make it
so your other version doesn't work and just

557
00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:27.199
to charge you know what I mean. Like you can kind of see that.

558
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.719
But I think, as far as
I know, like they have tidied

559
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:35.920
up a lot of what was wrong
with previous editions in fifth edition, like

560
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.480
things with combat, things with like
even just balance, a lot of balance

561
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:44.920
issues, and that they made it
so off the top of my head,

562
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:49.719
I know they improved some rogue abilities. They they kind of nerved guidance a

563
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:52.320
little bit, which I think needs
to be rained in a little Yeah,

564
00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:58.119
there's a lot of just just balance
tweaks and giving class features where certain classes

565
00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:00.920
are lacking. You're talking about fifth
edition in I'm just going to call it

566
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:05.519
the indie next Okay. No,
I'm saying, coming coming from all of

567
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:09.920
the previous editions a fifth edition that
they fixed the low lottels change, like,

568
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:13.760
but that's what I'm saying is the
core of the game changed. But

569
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:17.280
from my understanding of it was that
they changed the core of the game,

570
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:22.320
but they made it more approachable,
They made it easier for anybody to kind

571
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:27.920
of pick up and play, but
also that they fixed some previous issues with

572
00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:31.159
the game, like combat, Like
I think somebody said, like of combat,

573
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:35.440
really you could get kind of slogged
in combat, like it was like

574
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:43.519
overly they simplified it. I guess
yeah, yeah, and like for a

575
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.199
lot of people, that made it
better, and it's making it more approachable,

576
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:49.880
and it's making it so more people
can get into the hobby. And

577
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.199
so the idea of being that like
new editions should be improving the game,

578
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:58.199
right, not just slapping a new
name on it, just charging fifty bucks.

579
00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.320
And if you if it's not for
you, keep playing for the edition.

580
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:05.000
Everyone else will. I hope that. I hope that helps you out

581
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.280
automatic. But that's gonna wrap it
up for today. That's all we have

582
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:08.960
time for, So keep sending in
your questions, please, please please.

583
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:15.679
You can send your voicemails over to
Hello Adventurers Podcast dot com slash voice,

584
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.679
or you can want just email us
your questions, which we've had some players

585
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:22.679
do. You can send those over
to Hello Adventurers Podcast at gmail dot com.

586
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:25.280
We're gonna do these episodes every single
month and we'll tackle the things that

587
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:29.800
you want us to tackle. I
think that's gonna wrap it up, so

588
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:31.400
thanks so much for listening to Hello
Adventurers. We are your host, Jason

589
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:36.760
PORTISO chute broker and Joe McCall,
producer, editor and engineer Jason Portiso.

590
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:38.960
Music by an experier, Art right
by Kristin Broaderick. You can reach out

591
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:44.559
to us with any feedbackboard suggestions by
emailing Hello Adventurers podcast at gmail dot com.

592
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:47.599
Hello Adventures is a JTP audio production
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